Thread Source AGelbert > Adam G. Yoksas I rarely post here anymore because my metaphysical view of reality is rejected by materialists here. I am making an exception because of this profoundly insightful observation by you:
"If all that matters is one's material and measurable attributes, then it is no wonder why the only things that makes life meaningful are material and measurable things."Well, ALL that MATTERS to ALL materialists is the 3D Universe. Consequently, any other "version" of reality is rejected outright as, at best, the delusions of a wishful thinking fool or, more frequently, the hate filled ravings of a "Christo-Fascist" bigot. So, you are talking to a WALL when you ask materialists to look beyond their,
"3D Universe is IT" Procrustean Bed. No amount of science based logic will convince materialists that
their worldview is the ultimate Procrustean Bed. Evidence that they are totally irony challenged is their response to the irrefutable probability and statistcs cellular biochemistry math based
impossibility of the evolution of biochemicals to even the simplest bacterial cell life through random undirected processes. They yawn and say, "We'll figure that out eventually...". They can't" figure out" HOW life came into being but they can, with a straight face, militantly assert that Theism is "evidence of deluded wishful thinking"... 🤦♂️
The fact is that materialists are so full of pride that they will not even consider the possibility that they can be wrong about the nature of ✨ reality.
Atheists, at least the ones who have not replaced ethics with 🦍 Social Darwinism YET, will quote MLK Jr (see below) without any sense of irony, and five minutes later lambast anyone "ignorant" enough to believe that "God created this Universe, and everything in it, and us in His Image and likeness", never mind that silly superstition about, "Jesus Christ needing to die for our sins because of our fallen nature".
I agree with Chris Hedges. Atheists are interested in undermining the credibility of Theists, not objective discussion:
I know in Whom I have believed. I pray that all materialists will someday realize they MUST be like chldren, or all the good they seek for mankind in general, and themselves in particular, is in vain.
📢🚨 WARNING of Darwinian Social Decay and Destructionnewestbeginning > AgelbertHi Agelbert, I am going to address a few of your points:
I rarely post here anymore because my metaphysical view of reality is rejected by materialists here.
Sorry to hear that you find it unpleasant or unproductive to post here because of this. I know you have strong feelings about your spirituality. AFAICS, you are a great role model for spirituality so that is to be commended.
One of my greatest friends is a studied materialist. Behind all of that, he is also very spiritual. He tells me I am a terrible materialist; that my view of reality is quite different than his. I am probably also a terrible spiritualist so have a home in neither camp.
"If all that matters is one's material and measurable attributes, then it is no wonder why the only things that makes life meaningful are material and measurable things."
Well, ALL that MATTERS to ALL materialists is the 3D Universe.
It is a pretty deep discussion when you get to what makes life meaningful for people - and I think it is a mistake to generalize as you guys have done here. Consumerism sure has taken hold of us here in the US in particular - we waste so much, go into debt to buy poorly made stuff we don't really want or need.
I think this trend is because of the pressures of capitalism. I have seen figures between 38 and 57% of Americans thinking of themselves as religious - so a lack of spirituality would not explain the massive draw of people to possess "stuff".
Consequently, any other "version" of reality is rejected outright as, at best, the delusions of a wishful thinking fool or, more frequently, the hate filled ravings of a "Christo-Fascist" bigot. So, you are talking to a WALL when you ask materialists to look beyond their,"3D Universe is IT" Procrustean Bed.
Given we can't see what lies beyond the observable 3D universe, whatever exists is subject to speculation at best. Quantum Physics has sure turned up some freaky stuff that is hard to fit one's mind around. Who knows what else is undiscovered? Because that something is unknown and not understood doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Evidence that they are totally irony challenged is their response to the irrefutable probability and statistcs cellular biochemistry math based impossibility of the evolution of biochemicals to even the simplest bacterial cell life through random undirected processes. They yawn and say, "We'll figure that out eventually...". They can't" figure out" HOW life came into being but they can, with a straight face, militantly assert that Theism is "evidence of deluded wishful thinking"... 🤦♂️
I readily admit I don't know how life came into being and don't think anyone knows, At this stage, I am ok without knowing.
The fact is that materialists are so full of pride that they will not even consider the possibility that they can be wrong about the nature of ✨ reality.
Sure many are. But it is also humble to say "I don't know". Not knowing and the drive to learn is the germ of scientific research which like everything else, is constantly changing and evolving. :-)
"God created this Universe, and everything in it, and us in His Image and likeness", never mind that silly superstition about, "Jesus Christ needing to die for our sins because of our fallen nature".
There is too much inconsistency - or at least too much that is way outside my pay grade in all of that. With the horrors that man perpetrates on the world and other people, is does that tell us who God IS? I would hope not.
I agree with Chris Hedges. Atheists are interested in undermining the credibility of Theists, not objective discussion:
The atheists I know, including some fallen clergy, have more of a problem with the business of religion and the phony seeming people who wear their purported religion on their sleeve, but who fail to attempt to walk the walk, than with actual practicing theists.
Terrible crimes against humanity have been and are being perpetrated in the name of religion. Many of us want to distance ourselves from the wanton cruelty, violence and hatred.
AGelbert > newestbeginningYou have a good heart, but this is where the buck stops with me. IMHO, the core existential issue of here is not alleged "GOOD" or "EVIL" behavior among humans. I am perfectly comfortable with any egalitarian port in the ideological storm. I read and agree with much, VERY MUCH, that I see and read here, Counterpunch, Palestine Chroncle, Electronic Intifada, Chris Hedges Report, Thinking Muslim (just found this one - good analysis of mideast situation there), Geopolitical Economy Report, Al Jazeera, Mondoweiss, TruthDig, Truthout, Ralph Nader, Real Progressives, etc.
IMHO, the core issue is that the radically differing worldviews between atheists and theists always lead to irreconcilable differences in perception of the deleterious, or beneficial, effect on our species of any action resulting from the ideology of some cohort, whether dominant or not. That is, the Atheistic worldview that the physical manifestation of the Universe is all there is
VERSUS the Theistic worldview that the physical manifestation of the Universe is ONLY a TINY portion of reality in a Universe where physical death is a transition to a FAR more lengthy period of expanded consciousness, FAR beyond the limits of our physical body five senses,
produce radically different perceptions of the effect of the same observed events in human affairs. As good old Sherlock Holmes (might have said), it is elementary that, eternity aside for a moment, if
YOUR LONGEVITY is 30 centuries or more, 80 years of which you were encased in a physical biochemical matrix before transitioning to full metaphysical life,
the time in which your spirit is encased in a body must be viewed with the proper perspective. IF, on the other hand, 80 years or so is all you get before you get the dubious privilege of being recycled by goddess gaia, your FOCUS is going to be EXCLUSIVELY on YOUR PHYSICAL WELFARE for those 80 yeas or so. Why die to save someone else's life, if this is all there is? Lemmings do what they do because of some instinct. If you want to make the argument that "Evolution" helped our species survive and thrive by our willingness to fight and die for our species, then you get into the weeds of who is the "fittest" and who ain't. Any rational biologist will calmly explain to you that brilliant humans, who never had offspring, dying from disease does absolutely nothing to aid the "evolution" of the species. Nobody gives a drowning victim an IQ test, or asks if they had any children yet, before deciding whether or not it is "worth it" to try to save the drowning person. I won't get any more long winded on this. I have tried to explain why Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' "logic" has always been BS here before, but atheists turn their ears and eyes off whenever anybody bothers them by "tarnishing" their Atheist Bible Hero, so I will leave it there.
Back to Atheistic versus Theistic wordview differences As the Social Darwinism promoting Game Theorists make CLEAR, guile can play a role in your logical goal to get whatever you can by pretending to be altruistic until you can destroy the human competition you pretended to befriend (
ALL friendships are pretenses according to Game Theory - EVERYONE who is honest about our 3D Universe REALITY is EGOCENTRIC) for goods and resources at an opportune time.
These Game Theory advocating BASTARDS are all atheists, though they do methodically make it CLEAR that pretending to embrace some Theistic RELIGION can be an effective ploy, along with pretending to have ETHICS.
There is SO MUCH GUILE in human discourse that it makes me want to vomit. All this "enlightened self interest" CRAP and all this Voltaire BS about "The Enlightenment" makes me sick to my stomach. From Machiavelli to Voltaire to John Adams (
👈 senior moment - I meant to write Adam Smith 😕) to Thomas Jefferson, LEGERDEMAIN WORKAROUNDS TO ETHICS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SADDLED WITH!
YET, you atheists eat that "HUMAN SOCIAL PROGRESS" LEGERDEMAIN like cotton candy at a fair.
Oh, but the Popes (one corrupt POS greedball after another) did this and that. HOW did the POPE "do this and that, pray tell"? The POPES used LIES, USURY, THEFT, TORTURE, MURDER, CHEATING, etc.! WHAT does THAT HAVE TO DO WITH RELIGION? NOTHING! THAT WAS HERESY!
WHY do you atheists INSIST on equating HERESY with HONEST BIBLE BASED THEISM? The HERETICS calling themselves "Christians" who support GENOCIDE against Palestinians by Israeli Zionist HELLSPAWN HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH "MIGHT EQUALS RIGHT" SOCIAL DARWINISM AND NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION!!! It's the use of GAME THEORY GUILE at it's MOST stomach churning EVIL!
I celebrate efforts by you and other atheists anywhere who are ethics based, but I am weary of "religion" being used as a whipping boy. I have HAD IT with people of good will ignoring the FACT that most greedballs out there, since time immemorial, have USED some "deity" as an excuse to compete in making the hit parade of in-our-faces continuous breaking of the Ten Commandments for hellspawn fun and profit.
Greedballs DO NOT believe in ANY "god" BUT THEMSEVES, no matter WHAT THEY SAY! Atheists cannot seem to get that through their UNspiritual heads. ALL atheists SEE, no matter how much they claim to be, "spiritual", is the 3D universe. In a universe with no metaphysical nature, there are NO SPIRITS. There is NOTHING BEYOND PHYSICAL LIFE, PERIOD. There is
NO LIFE AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH. There is NON-EXISTENCE after death, PERIOD.
Poetry DOES NOT APPLY, though atheists love to use it to when honoring fallen people of good will, like that Palestinian Poet 🕊️ Refaat Alareer bombed to death by the Israeli Zionist IDF HELLSPAWN, who wrote about anyone seeing a kite with a white tail would be seeing him smiling from beyond. NO WAY THAT CAN HAPPEN if the 3D universe is all there is, as you atheists firmly believe. Yet, committed atheist Caitlin Johnstone, a person of 🕊️ good will who cried over Refaat Alareer, made a painting of him, and quoted his kite included poem, sees no irony in honoring a person that, according to her materialist Procrustean Bed, NO LONGER EXISTS.
I will not get into a word parsing waste of time on the definition of "spiritual", but if it means, "not being meanspirited", then I can see the misunderstanding. Collectivist Activist, you, milo dmorista, Caitlin Johnstone, Dmar, etc.
et al and many others here are certainly NOT meanspirited;
You are noble fighters for justice equity, peace and harmony in this Valley of Tears, BUT NONE of you believe that metaphysics is anything but a fanciful la-la land made up by we Theists. No matter how you wish to present your view as compassionate, you have ZERO respect for the Theistic worldview.
Atheists are victims. Does that make you laugh? Does that make you scoff? Does that make you pity the ignorance of a fellow like me that makes the claim that you atheists are victims of a box canyon logic based Procrustean Bed? IF you laugh, scoff, pity or FEEL any other emotion besides curiousity, as to what my basis for making that "irrational" (to an atheist) claim is, then you are the irrational party here.
The point I have obviously failed to get accross to you atheists, most of you who have a thorough knowledge of human history, is that MONOTHEISTS HAVE PREVENTED FAR MORE EVIL than those PSEUDO-MONOTHEISTS carrying the label have caused. YOU DO NOT WANT TO GO THERE. YOU DO NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT PERCENTAGES. YOU REFUSE TO SEE that the "MIGHT EQUALS RIGHT" HELLSPAWN are FAR MORE PREVALENT in SOCIALLY DESTRUCTIVE ACTIONS BY TPTB than RELIGION.
On the day that someone here, hopefully you, FINALLY decides to be OBJECTIVE about the PERCENTAGES of the different ideological and religious influences (i.e. WHO were the MOST THAT DID WHAT to corrupt human civilization over the past 2000 years), I will be happy to post here again.
Dmar3 > AgelbertI don't see very many atheist forced birthers, and the one I did argue against decades was basically alt-right (ie, a racist fascist so with a lot of problems in his thinking already) before alt-right was even terminology. Otherwise they've been Christians.
Agelbert > Dmar3Dear Dmar3, your argument is equivalent to condemning the Health Care Profession because some malevolent, but very intelligent, resourceful and ambitious Doctors and Nurses are psychos that position themselves in nursing homes and/or intensive care units of Hospitals in order to murder patients.
There is a proportionality distinction deficit in your argument that you do not want to acknowledge, despite irrefutable historically documented evidence of socially constructive good will by the overwhelmig majority of Theists, be they Christians or not. I don't blame you modern day Atheists of good will for the 100's of thousands, if not mllions, of humans murdered because of the actions/orders/influence of atheists (in thought, word and deed) Genghis Kahn, Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Hitler, Stalin and Henry Kissinger, to name some of the more egregious examples of true believers in "Might Equals Right". Why do you blame ALL Christians for some corrupt bastards among us?
I do not do divide and conquer fascist wedge issues; I'll stick with
Matthew 7:12 ("Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."), NOT because it is the ethical thing to do (though it certainly is if you aren't a masochist or a sadist), but because Jesus Christ COMMANDED me to do it as a condition to my obtaining everlasting LIFE. I cannot do this on my own; I require the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit to aid me in this endeavor that is otherwise impossible for my human fallen spirit flesh. I will do that, God willing, until my last breath in this Valley of Tears.
God Bless you, Dmar3.